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Road to Wargram and Peninsular Mod - Updated 1.6

10 years 1 week ago - 10 years 1 week ago #91 by Nowy

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  • Replied by Nowy on topic Re: Napoleonic download link

    Nowy,

    I believe most of us appreciate your information. Unfortunately you still don't get the concept of working within the game. The infantry squares we can achieve here are what the game engine can support. Posting more information is fine, but unfortunately it will tend to be superfluous. No offense, but don't take offense if we tend to ignore it. Many of us have game design experience in some fashion. We know what can be done and what has to wait. Thanks for understanding.

    Jack B)


    Jack there is no offence, but do you know who ignore knowledge?

    I think that Gunship24 is more open on my remarks.

    Do you remember that guy which ignored hussars, more different types of infantry, cavalry, artillery, uniforms facings and few other small things needed in this mod?

    I did not agree with him. Then I put some remarks in that matter and postulated some improvements, and as you can see, Gunship implement these colourful hussars, Voltigeurs, Grenadiers, new smaller flags and stars for generals. He also try implement Napoleonic tactic and formations. He did these things quite good, however it was showed after my remarks. It looks that he did not ignored my questions in that matter. B)

    That is why I cast some information which can help all to better understand Napoleonic armies and warfare. Then the most characteristic things could be implemented in the game.

    Infantry squares were characteristic for that period, therefore it should looks and operate fine. It should gives more immersion on that type of warfare too. Gunship tried implement this formation, but it still needs some improvements, because even on your screenshot in post # 90 that infantry squares looks as too small and tight formations. In far view it even looks like packed columns. There are too big four rows/ranks/ walls and too small hollow, empty place inside.

    General commanders should be placed inside squares, at last even Napoleon and Wellington saved themselves inside infantry squares sometimes. I know that game have limits and other programming problems, but don’t you see that these squares do not look like historical big hollow squares?

    It should be little bit bigger, have more hollow place inside and allow place generals inside.

    Can it be done and how? That is a question to programmers. But they need some information how it worked in reality. Therefore I cast some things to help them in historical research.

    And one more remark.
    Infantry squares were defended with properly and timely fired volley, and firmly stand ground in formation. Mele was rare case, because “hoses were unwilling to impale themselves on bayonets.” Therefore they passed around squares. But when infantry broke square formation then cavalry can cut them into pieces. Not formed in square infantrymen had little chance against big horses and well trained cavalrymen.
    Last edit: 10 years 1 week ago by Nowy.

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    10 years 1 week ago - 10 years 1 week ago #92 by Marching Thru Georgia

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  • Jack O'Neill wrote:

    Here is my first attempt to post a screenshot. If it works it is a shot of Austrian Infantry Squares repelling a French Light Cavalry charge. You can see the Horsemen retreating in the upper left of the picture. Squares DO work AND I was wrong, you do not have to TC them to keep them in square. They will stay there like any other formation after melee. Sweet again!

    Is it the mutual fire support of all the squares that keeps the cavalry at bay? In other words, would the cavalry melee with a single square?

    By the way that's a very nice picture. With all that French cavalry pouring out of the town it looks like you've brought in Murat for the wet work.

    I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
    Last edit: 10 years 1 week ago by Marching Thru Georgia.

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    10 years 1 week ago #93 by Jack ONeill

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  • MTG,

    Because it is a game, the Cav will make contact with the square and melee. There is no provision for Cavalry either bluffing a charge or the "riding on through and reforming later" aspect of a real charge. After having done some more testing, the conclusion is the firepower of the mutually supporting squares can do an admirable job of helping a lot to drive off the charging horsemen. The squares get to fire all their weapons, which is NOT historically accurate, but it is acceptable as a trade off for the horsemen actually reaching the square(s).
    Since Gunship has made the Cav slightly more fragile in melee with Infantry, even when they do close, about four out of five times the Cav falls back. The square will eventually break if hit 3-4 times by charging cav. I find that acceptable for gaming purposes. Once Gunship puts together some Heavy Cavalry, (Cuirassiers, Carabiniers, etc. - pant, pant...), That may be a different story. They should be slightly tougher against both firepower and melee. These were "Big Men on Big Horses" and thier job was to ride down formed infantry, smashing the enemy battle line, forcing a breach and allowing the light Horse to harry the retreating enemy forever, a la the pursuit of the Prussian Army after Jena-Auerstadt in 1806.
    Sorry to run on there, but I do dig this period.

    Jack "digging the period " O'Neill B)

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    10 years 1 week ago #94 by Jack ONeill

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  • Gunship,

    A funny thing just happened during a battle. My Austrian light horse were formed facing Seminary Ridge and unengaged. I came back to find them with some 25-30 casualties. I peered across the valley and found French 8-pdrs were banging away from the ridgeline some 600 yards away. They were unsupported so I sent 2 squadrons to take them. The Cav reached the Battery but were not allowed to take the guns. They literally stood in the gunline but nothing. The Battery continued to fire, no-one was limbering up trying to escape or anything. Is this a glitch or did you tell us that somewhere and I'm too dumb to find it?

    Jack "not very bright" O'Neill B)

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    10 years 1 week ago #95 by gunship24

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  • The Cav reached the Battery but were not allowed to take the guns. They literally stood in the gunline but nothing.


    This was picked up by alessillo in his zulu mod he was doing and is a bug in the game. For whatever reason they stop and fire instead of charging unlimbered artillery. I think you can get them to charge manually but they wont autocharge.

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    10 years 1 week ago #96 by Jack ONeill

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  • G,

    Sorry, wasen't clear - I WAS manually charging after they didn't go in on their own. They'll charge Foot or Horse no problem. The just stood there, maybe they were firing. Hard to say.

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    10 years 1 week ago #97 by Marching Thru Georgia

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  • Jack O'Neill wrote:

    They were unsupported so I sent 2 squadrons to take them. The Cav reached the Battery but were not allowed to take the guns. They literally stood in the gunline but nothing. The Battery continued to fire, no-one was limbering up trying to escape or anything. Is this a glitch or did you tell us that somewhere and I'm too dumb to find it?

    Were they tired? When cavalry reach that state, they will not charge. If they are meleeing, they will break off and retreat towards their lines. They have to be winded or better to be of any use. And they do take a long time to recover. This simulates the time needed to reorganize and rest the horses.

    I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.

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    10 years 1 week ago #98 by Jack ONeill

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  • MTG,

    Yes, aware of the "Horses Blown" issue. No, they were fully rested even though they rode some 600 yards to the Battery. Good morale too. Will test this out again when it comes up again.

    Jack B)

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    10 years 1 week ago - 10 years 1 week ago #99 by gunship24

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  • gunship24 wrote:

    At the very least I would love to see the FireMod and MeleeMod in the drills working, these would act similar to the Melee and Fire modifiers in unitattributes that are set with the units expereince level. It's been placed but doesn't seem to do anything.


    Norb wrote:

    firemod - works for cav and inf, not art
    melmod - works for cav and inf

    They are in there, they increase the chance of a hit not the firepower, just the chance that a shot will make a hit. I believe this is out of 1000.


    Hope this helps.

    B


    Thanks B. I gave this another go. There are two files with Fire and Melee modifers. Unitattributes has Fire Modifer, Load Modifer and Melee Modifer. The other file Drills has FireMod and MeleeMod. I assume these do the same thing, one affects the unit as assigned in the OOB and the other the formation used by all units. I tested each one seperately.

    Unitattributes
    I copied the rank "9" Marksmanship, renamed it "10" and assigned values 1000 to each of the modifiers. I then set the unit Marskmanship in the OOB to 10 and sure enough the unit was like a killing machine. It mowed down the enemy as if it has machine guns and annihilated them easily in hand to hand. I also repeated with the Load Modifer left blank with the same result. So these do work.

    Drills
    With the Marksmanship set back to normal I set the FireMod and MeleeMod in the unit Skirmish formation to 1000 each. Loaded up the game, put a unit in skirmish but it had no affect. They fired and fought normally.

    Its like the ones in drills just arent used.
    Last edit: 10 years 1 week ago by gunship24.

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    10 years 1 week ago #100 by Jack ONeill

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  • All,

    How odd. Sure would think those files should operate at least together.

    Jack B)

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    10 years 1 week ago - 10 years 1 week ago #101 by gunship24

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  • G,

    Sorry, wasen't clear - I WAS manually charging after they didn't go in on their own. They'll charge Foot or Horse no problem. The just stood there, maybe they were firing. Hard to say.

    Jack B)


    Check out this thread www.norbsoftdev.net/index.php/forum/modifications/31658-working-on-mods around post #19. There are certainly some known issues, needs confirmation though.
    Last edit: 10 years 1 week ago by gunship24.

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    10 years 1 week ago #102 by Jack ONeill

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  • G,

    Checked out the thread. I remember it. Tried some more times to charge Batteries with Cav. No Joy. Weird. However, it does not really detract from the game. Batteries are rarely unsupported anyway. Had to really hunt for them.

    Jack B)

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    10 years 1 week ago #103 by Jack ONeill

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  • And just for no reason at all, a pic of massed Austrian Light Cavalry for you enjoyment. The lead regiment is the Archduke Johann Hussars #2, with the Hohenzollern Chevauxleger #2 behind them.

    Jack :)

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    10 years 1 week ago - 10 years 1 week ago #104 by Nowy

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  • Replied by Nowy on topic Re: Napoleonic download link
    This Austrian Light Cavalry looks quite fine. Regiments had 8 squadrons in columns, very good.

    But interesting to know what oob do you use here.

    As I know general Fresnel commanded infantry division in I Bellegarde Army Corps in spring 1809.
    This corps did not include, mentioned by you, hussars # 2 and chevauleger # 2 regiments.
    There were Blankenstein Hussars #6 and Schwarzenberg uhlans # 2 Regiments.

    By the way # 2 Hussar regiment it was Erzherzog (Archduke) Joseph Anton Palatin of Hungary Regiment. It was not Archduke Johann Hussars, there were no such hussars regiment in Austrian Army.
    Last edit: 10 years 1 week ago by Nowy.

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    10 years 1 week ago #105 by Jack ONeill

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  • N,

    Used the OOB's from "Crisis on the Danube" by James Arnold, Paragon House, 1990. No, neither of those two regiments were in Fresnel's Division. Again, this is where you fall down. I would have preferred to use the correct units (Schwarzenburg Uhlans #2 and Blankenstien Hussars #6), but we don't have Uhlans, (yet), and the Hussars #2 were the closest match in uniform color to the ones Gunship has already produced. The Hussars #6 worn a light blue, or some list it as sky blue uniform, which does not exist here yet. Easy enough to change if they are ever produced. Austrian Cavalry uniform info courtesy of "The Hungarian Hussar 1756-1815," by Dave Hollins. I am working with what Gunship has graciously provided - remember, there's game design here.

    OMG!!! Stop the presses!!!!!!! You are right - the Hussars should be Archduke Joseph, not Johann. Was Converting some infantry at the same time and crossed up the names. Have already fixed it.

    Back to the original screed - So, in order to have the Korps in the game, (Bellegardes 1st. Korps), I swapped in different units. I also left out an entire Division, as that would have givin the Austrian side a huge numerical advantage.

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    10 years 1 week ago #106 by Jack ONeill

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  • N,

    Also, the idea is to get more Cavalry in the game. When I do more troopers for the French, I'll add more Chassuers a Cheval rather than more Hussars. Gunship has produced only one French Hussar unit. He calls it the 8th. Hussars. Their real uniform is Green/Green. So, in the game the uniform is wrong but they still fight. The 1st, 5th and 10th Hussars wore sky blue/sky blue. Pire's Brigade lists the 8th. Hussars among others.
    On the other hand, the Chassuers a Cheval had the SAME uniform, but with different facings, throughout their regiments, so they are easy to replicate.

    Note - A concession to the game has to be made. Due to the OOB listing in the game, Cavalry Brigades have one regiment only. In real life they had more.

    Note again - N, do you have the Nap. Mod downloaded? Are you playing it?

    Jack B)

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    10 years 1 week ago #107 by Leffe7

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  • Replied by Leffe7 on topic Re: Napoleonic download link
    Hi, just a quick question. Does this mod only work in singleplayer sandbox? It works fine for me, but crashes when trying multiplayer.

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    10 years 1 week ago #108 by Jack ONeill

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  • Hey Leffy,

    Single Player only, for now. All the running gear, as it were, would need to be loaded into the central servers before we can play MP. I have really no idea if it will ever be MP or not, as I don't know what all is involved.

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    10 years 1 week ago #109 by Davinci

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  • OMG!!! Stop the presses!!!!!!! You are right - the Hussars should be Archduke Joseph, not Johann. Was Converting some infantry at the same time and crossed up the names. Have already fixed it.


    LOL

    Be Nice, at least he means well!

    davinci

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    10 years 1 week ago #110 by Beef Stu

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  • i read someone was having trouble charging artillery with cavalry. i can't charge them with infantry either. is this right?

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    10 years 1 week ago #111 by born2see

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  • Beef Stu wrote:

    i can't charge them with infantry either. is this right?


    No. That's how you capture the guns. If your unit is "Tired" or worse, they won't charge.

    B

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    10 years 1 week ago #112 by Jack ONeill

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  • Beef and Born,

    I was the one unable to take a French Battery with charging horsemen. Horse were fresh, not blown or tired, with good morale. We have found this to be a glitch from somewhere. Have not yet had the alleged opportunity to waste Infantrymens lives in an attempt to remove cannon from the other sides possession. It will come up soon, I'm sure.

    On another note - the French Army of Germany has grown somewhat today with addition of 2 Divisions of Oudinots 2nd. Corps, with attached Corps Reserve Artiilery. Sweet. Pictures forthcoming. I can now put 45,000 men on the field on each side. Gotta get some bigger maps. :laugh:

    BTW,

    Born, thank you for the info on how to post pics. Works like a charm. :)

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    10 years 1 week ago #113 by Jack ONeill

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  • DaV,

    I WAS being nice. :) I acknowledged a mistake AND his information was correct. Fair is fair.

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    10 years 1 week ago #114 by born2see

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  • Jack ONeil wrote:


    I was the one unable to take a French Battery with charging horsemen.


    I knew that was a problem. Logged it as a Feature Request with Norb. The infantry will unless G has modded it out.

    B

    "Those in whose judgment I rely, tell me that I fought the battle splendidly and that it was a masterpiece of art.” - George McClellan to his wife describing the battle of Antietam

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    10 years 1 week ago #115 by Jack ONeill

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  • B,

    Roger that.

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    10 years 1 week ago #116 by Beef Stu

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  • ... men were not tired, they were sitting in column formation,hidden next to a road for more then 20 minutes, enemy didnt see them and sent all there guns down the road. the guns were limbered when i charged and nothing happened. then they ran a short distance and unlimbered , i tried to charge again and thats when nothing happened and i ate canister.

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    10 years 1 week ago #117 by born2see

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  • I know it works because I use it all the time to capture guns. It was taught to me by JC Edwards who is a master at this game by anyone's standards. However, I only play the Historic Scenarios with no mods except RebBugler's toolbar so maybe that has something to do with it.

    I'm sure someone else will jump in to confirm or deny this.

    Guys???

    B

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    10 years 1 week ago #118 by Jack ONeill

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  • Born,

    Yes it works in ACW. It's not working in the Napoleonic Mod. Can't figure out what the difference could be.

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    10 years 1 week ago #119 by born2see

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  • My bad. G will have to answer that one.

    B

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    10 years 1 week ago - 10 years 1 week ago #120 by gunship24

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  • That is something I shall change. It's an easy fix and ive attached the drills that will allow you to charge. I had set the line formations to CantCharge = 1. In the SDK this says the unit will not counter charge but in reality it means it wont charge even on manual, although i think auto-charge will still work. Either download my file and overwrite the first one assuming its unedited, or open drills.csv, go to "Level 6 Infantry 3Line (0)" and "Level 6 Infantry 3Line Fight (1)" at the bottom, go to row R and delete the 1 there.


    Drills for charging

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    File Name: drills.csv
    File Size:135 KB
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    Last edit: 10 years 1 week ago by gunship24.

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