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DRM

11 years 9 months ago - 11 years 9 months ago #31 by Garnier44

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  • Replied by Garnier44 on topic Re:DRM
    norb wrote:

    When I published with them, they used securom. It was hacked within a week of release.

    I've had some less than desirable experiences with them, so excuse my lack of infatuation.


    That was four years ago. Their games now have no copy protection that frustrates legitimate customers. It frustrates peoples pirate the game because they get no tech support and no multiplayer.

    I'm curious as to what your goal is with DRM though. Is the goal to make as little piracy as possible happen, or is it to maximize sales regardless of piracy?

    Would it be better to have say, 1000 people play a pirated version and 5000 buy the game, or 10,000 play a pirated version and 6000 buy the game?

    We can't know what the resulting numbers would be with any approach. Personally I think the more frustrated legitimate customers there are, the fewer sales will be made, because people who are frustrated aren't going to spread word about the game.

    It's impossible to stop pirating of the singleplayer unless it requires an internet connection while playing. I also wonder if there are any stories of indie games that were ruined because they didn't enforce strict DRM, and where it's reasonable to think they would have done better with strict DRM.

    I think the best approach to curbing piracy is to give people other reasons to buy the game. Like being able to play multiplayer, get tech support, and something more in the game. That takes some creativity.
    Last edit: 11 years 9 months ago by Garnier44.

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    11 years 9 months ago #32 by norb-1

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  • Replied by norb-1 on topic Re:DRM
    Garnier44 wrote:

    I'm curious as to what your goal is with DRM though. Is the goal to make as little piracy as possible happen, or is it to maximize sales regardless of piracy?

    Would it be better to have say, 1000 people play a pirated version and 5000 buy the game, or 10,000 play a pirated version and 6000 buy the game?

    We can't know what the resulting numbers would be with any approach. Personally I think the more frustrated legitimate customers there are, the fewer sales will be made, because people who are frustrated aren't going to spread word about the game.

    It's impossible to stop pirating of the singleplayer unless it requires an internet connection while playing. I also wonder if there are any stories of indie games that were ruined because they didn't enforce strict DRM, and where it's reasonable to think they would have done better with strict DRM.

    I think the best approach to curbing piracy is to give people other reasons to buy the game. Like being able to play multiplayer, get tech support, and something more in the game. That takes some creativity.


    Like I said before, when you spend years writing your own game, then you can make that decision. But until you do I'm not going to debate whether or not to use DRM. I'm just trying to get some opinions about which methods people would prefer. When I stop seeing hack sites and thousands of downloads from torrent sites, then I'll start wondering about if it's necessary.

    NSD Programmer/Producer
    "Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” - Gamaliel 40 A.D.

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    11 years 9 months ago #33 by Garnier44

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  • Replied by Garnier44 on topic Re:DRM
    OK.

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    11 years 9 months ago #34 by BOSTON

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  • Replied by BOSTON on topic Re:DRM
    I second choice #1

    HOISTINGMAN4

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    11 years 9 months ago #35 by Fish_au

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  • Replied by Fish_au on topic Re:DRM
    norb wrote:

    I fully expect to remove the drm stuff at some point. I like to do that once we're done with it ourselves


    well this is good news, and makes up for the DRM system over the short/medium term perhaps.

    i use gamersgate and don't mind it now; but it did take a bit of getting used to. but i have a residual fear that the company running gamersgate could fold and i would lose all my games. I won't use steam, the only steam game i bought was ETW and it seemed to combine all the worst aspects of disc AND internet DRM. I haven't played ETW since several failed attempts to reinstall it - with my own disc in the drive the whole time mind you, which cost me A$110 - i uninstalled steam shortly after.

    Apart from that debacle, Im happy to pay full price for a game & expansions and whatnot because I think its important to support the programmers and the viability of the (short list of) companies that make the digital wargames/simulations i like. Even if that means tolerating the paradox model of releasing beta versions for public testing; MM/NSD has a much better rep than that tho.

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    11 years 9 months ago #36 by Gfran64

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  • Replied by Gfran64 on topic Re:DRM
    #1 is OK for me.

    Greg

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    11 years 9 months ago - 11 years 9 months ago #37 by Janh

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  • Replied by Janh on topic Re:DRM
    For a CD version with a good old type manual I'd spent $50. I still remember the early times of PC games on 386 with Aces over the Pacific, Aces of the Deep, Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe or Janes Longbow, just to name a few. Each came with a thick manual of 300-400 pages that even included substantial physical background or long history description of couple hundred pages. I would probably have bought those games just for the "book". It feels like you have a safety with a CD -- as long as you treat it well -- and like you got something real in return for your hard-earned money. Kinda sucks that good games barely have a good "booklet" nowadays!

    So far I never downloaded a game, and probably will avoid unless totally impossible.
    Your question of activation comes down to the price. If I assume that I typically install a game about 10 times on different/upgrades etc computer over its life span of 3-5 years, $40/10 would be $4 per install. So $8 for a two install and $20 for the 5 installs would sound great, but I guess that wouldn't help you guys so much in funding your future projects.
    And I'd really be willing to pay my fair share in order to see one day a campaign game or maybe even a whole strategic/economic civil war game fighting all the battles with the War3D engine. I'd really like NSD to come out with a nice boxed DVD, but I understand that this has other catches aside from start capital.

    I also have something for you to consider: What happens if you'd install in a virtual host, like I do on my work notebook running a Windows guest a Linux VM host? That would mainly require a lot of RAM, but with 2GB requirement and most computers today having 4-8GB no problem. I assume I could then just copy the VM-Machine with the game to my desktop if needed and launch the virtual machine there. But would I still have to reactivate? If not, that would be a some way for a "backup" or to move to a different machine, though pretty cumbersome.
    The question is whether that would be something you'd tolerate, or whether not?
    Last edit: 11 years 9 months ago by Janh.

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    11 years 9 months ago #38 by Rich Mac

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  • Replied by Rich Mac on topic Re:DRM
    I'd prefer #1, however if you implemented #2 it wouldn't be a show-stopper.

    Would it be possible to give the purchaser the option of #1 or #2 at the time of download? Perhaps that is impossible or would be a major PITA to solve technically, but it would give you the best chance of keeping most customers happy.

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    11 years 9 months ago - 11 years 9 months ago #39 by Los

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  • Replied by Los on topic Re:DRM
    Some wargames allow two installs per license with checking back to a main server on initial install (your option one but w two installs per license). And you can uninstall and get the license back. Similar to elicense for battlefront games. This allows those of us with a few PCs at home to play the game on 2 machines via LAN (I have a son who plays as well) without having to buy two copies. Please consider something like that. Please consider something like that. Anyway either works fine irregardless though I prefer I.

    The question of how to get multiple installs for various mods on the same PC is a good one as well.


    Los
    Last edit: 11 years 9 months ago by Los.

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    11 years 9 months ago #40 by Hancock the Superb

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  • Replied by Hancock the Superb on topic Re:DRM
    My opinion:
    Number 1. Because it would be slightly cheaper, makes it so you can't give this game to 5 of your best buds, and because your new modding system eliminates the need for multiple installs.

    Hancock the Superb

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    11 years 9 months ago #41 by norb-1

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  • Replied by norb-1 on topic Re:DRM
    Janh wrote:

    I also have something for you to consider: What happens if you'd install in a virtual host, like I do on my work notebook running a Windows guest a Linux VM host? That would mainly require a lot of RAM, but with 2GB requirement and most computers today having 4-8GB no problem. I assume I could then just copy the VM-Machine with the game to my desktop if needed and launch the virtual machine there. But would I still have to reactivate? If not, that would be a some way for a "backup" or to move to a different machine, though pretty cumbersome.
    The question is whether that would be something you'd tolerate, or whether not?


    Tolerate? Yes. Support? Don't have the manpower. If it works, go for it.

    NSD Programmer/Producer
    "Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” - Gamaliel 40 A.D.

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    11 years 9 months ago #42 by norb-1

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  • Replied by norb-1 on topic Re:DRM
    Rich Mac wrote:

    I'd prefer #1, however if you implemented #2 it wouldn't be a show-stopper.

    Would it be possible to give the purchaser the option of #1 or #2 at the time of download? Perhaps that is impossible or would be a major PITA to solve technically, but it would give you the best chance of keeping most customers happy.


    I'm not sure if it's possible or not, but I don't think we will because our support is this forum right here. I'm not sure that we could offer tech support for two different methods.

    NSD Programmer/Producer
    "Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” - Gamaliel 40 A.D.

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    11 years 9 months ago - 11 years 9 months ago #43 by norb-1

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  • Replied by norb-1 on topic Re:DRM
    I just want to say to everyone, thanks for nothing!!! You guys can't agree on anything and I'm no closer to figuring this out than when I started :lol: :)

    Actually you've given us a lot to consider and I am talking with the company doing the drm for us. They work very closely with us to make sure that they provide the solution that our customers want. It's sort of stupid to be spending all this time on something that will be hacked soon after release, but I can't NOT try to stop the shoplifters. Our families have spent too many years looking at the back of our heads hunched over our computers for us to just allow people to walk out of the store without paying.

    NSD Programmer/Producer
    "Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” - Gamaliel 40 A.D.
    Last edit: 11 years 9 months ago by norb-1.

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    11 years 9 months ago #44 by O. O. Howard

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  • Replied by O. O. Howard on topic Re:DRM
    norb wrote:

    I just want to say to everyone, thanks for nothing!!! You guys can't agree on anything and I'm no closer to figuring this out than when I started :lol: :)

    Actually you've given us a lot to consider and I am talking with the company doing the drm for us. They work very closely with us to make sure that they provide the solution that our customers want. It's sort of stupid to be spending all this time on something that will be hacked soon after release, but I can't NOT try to stop the shoplifters. Our families have spent too many years looking at the back of our heads hunched over our computers for us to just allow people to walk out of the store without paying.


    We are not the ones you have to worry about. We are all going to buy it and keep using it no matter what you decide. You probably need to see what is going to effect purchases by the wider gaming audience while still protecting your work and investment as much as possible.

    We know this is a labor of love for you guys, but protecting your work making some money on it will increase our chances of continued and even better releases in the future. I would say do what you need to do based on the wider gaming market and you can count on us buying, using and being very happy with the game no matter what grumbling we make.

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    11 years 9 months ago #45 by DrMike1997

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  • Replied by DrMike1997 on topic Re:DRM
    I think Howard is right. We will buy the game regardless of which way you go. One comment earlier said that your new mod system obviated the need for multiple installs. If this is correct then a good deal of the fear goes away for either choice!

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    11 years 9 months ago #46 by norb-1

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  • Replied by norb-1 on topic Re:DRM
    Yes, there will be no reason for multiple installs. Modders no longer will or can mess with our base files. Mods can now override the base files right from their mods folder. This has been one of my pet projects and the team seems pretty happy with it so far.

    NSD Programmer/Producer
    "Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” - Gamaliel 40 A.D.

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    11 years 9 months ago #47 by IronBMike

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  • Replied by IronBMike on topic Re:DRM
    That sounds excellent!

    CWGII -> SMG -> SMA -> WNLB -> ANGV -> TC -> TC2M -> SOW

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    11 years 9 months ago #48 by DrMike1997

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  • Replied by DrMike1997 on topic Re:DRM
    Great! At that point, pick one. Or on second thought pick the one that will make the game cheaper :P

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    11 years 9 months ago #49 by norb-1

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  • Replied by norb-1 on topic Re:DRM
    I sort of like the idea of selling the installs. 2-5-10 packs. If you need more you buy more and the price point reflects the installs. So people that maybe have a limited budget could go in with some friends and pick it up.

    2 - $19.99 (one install, one backup)
    5 - $39.99
    10 - $59.99

    In this method, if you run out, you have to buy more. I allows people on a limited budget to get the game cheap. People could pool with friends if they want. It would be easy to buy a bunch and set up a lan party.

    Not sure if this would be accepted or not, but it certainly would make this whole thing easier on our limited tech support department :)

    NSD Programmer/Producer
    "Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” - Gamaliel 40 A.D.

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    11 years 9 months ago #50 by 8th Alabama

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  • Replied by 8th Alabama on topic Re:DRM
    Either copy protection is fine by me. If I had to pick I would choose the 5 installs.
    Been playing TC2M quite awhile now, had to reinstall once when I replaced my computer.
    Best $30 I have ever spent on gaming. Looking forward to Gettysburg and Multiplayer, gonna be a blast.

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    11 years 9 months ago #51 by Garnier44

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  • Replied by Garnier44 on topic Re:DRM
    What does an "install" mean though. If it is indeed all contained in the game folder, I could back the game folder up on a CD, and then whenever I want to use it, copy it off the CD.

    If part of the "install" is buried in the registry, it would take a some effort, but it would likely be a straightforward process to backup the install for future use.

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    11 years 9 months ago #52 by Harag

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  • Replied by Harag on topic Re:DRM
    Norb, I like your thinking about buddys sharing and creating LAN parties, being cheap (ie offering 2 installs for the price of one), its very noble of you to think like this, unlike all the rest of the game companies out there that just want our money.

    But, you and your team need to make money, you've worked so hard to not earn a buck or two for yourselves, and if you have financial difficulty in future then they might not be another version. :( I would really like to see the next version with the whole of america and the civil war as a campaign, with the battles in 3d - like the Total wars - but FULLY multiplayer - say like Europa Uni.

    With this in mind I would go for option one as it will make you the most money in the long run, but whichever way you choose I will be buying TWO copies at least.

    Keep up the excellent work, and we're ALL really looking forward to the release!

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    11 years 9 months ago #53 by AP514

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  • Replied by AP514 on topic Re:DRM
    norb wrote:

    I sort of like the idea of selling the installs. 2-5-10 packs.

    2 - $19.99 (one install, one backup)
    5 - $39.99
    10 - $59.99

    Hold your horses there....Norb. I think your really selling your self short there on the Price.....

    $40 for this game is a steal IMO.......

    AP514

    P.S.
    I still vote for option #1. Even more so if your going to give the game a $20 price.

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    11 years 9 months ago #54 by Hancock the Superb

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  • Replied by Hancock the Superb on topic Re:DRM
    I like that idea too! However, $20 for a game like this may be a little on the low side...

    Though it is your choice!

    Hancock the Superb

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    11 years 9 months ago #55 by Rich Mac

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  • Replied by Rich Mac on topic Re:DRM
    I'm not so sure that $20 is too cheap for only two installs.

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    11 years 9 months ago #56 by norb-1

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  • Replied by norb-1 on topic Re:DRM
    The drm is locked to the hardware. You can reinstall on the same machine, but if you need to install on another machine, etc. Then you need to use another install. So if you bought two, you could only "activate" the game twice. One for your first install, then one for emergency if your drive crashes. If you need more, you have to buy more.

    It's just an idea, a new look at purchasing software. Not sure if it's a good idea, but thought that I would run it by everyone. Most people would probably need more than 2 installs. I personally would probably buy the 2, then see how it goes. Then if I like it I would buy more for the rest of my computers, probably buy the 10 if I liked it.

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    "Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” - Gamaliel 40 A.D.

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    11 years 9 months ago #57 by norb-1

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  • Replied by norb-1 on topic Re:DRM
    Garnier44 wrote:

    What does an "install" mean though. If it is indeed all contained in the game folder, I could back the game folder up on a CD, and then whenever I want to use it, copy it off the CD.

    If part of the "install" is buried in the registry, it would take a some effort, but it would likely be a straightforward process to backup the install for future use.


    I'm not sure of the exact details of the DRM, but I'm sure that you and many others will be looking into it as soon as it's released. But I'm pretty sure it's not just some registry value, too easy. Gotta at least make it a challenge.

    NSD Programmer/Producer
    "Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” - Gamaliel 40 A.D.

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    11 years 9 months ago #58 by Hancock the Superb

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  • Replied by Hancock the Superb on topic Re:DRM
    I would only buy two installs, just because I have no need for 5 or 10.

    I also believe that a game like this - an excellent one, no doubt, should have a little heftier price that $20 on the low end. Most Wii games are more than that! And this will be better than a Wii game...

    However, the price should be kept fairly low for those of us with budgets.

    Hancock the Superb

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    11 years 9 months ago #59 by O. O. Howard

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  • Replied by O. O. Howard on topic Re:DRM
    Hancock the Superb wrote:

    I would only buy two installs, just because I have no need for 5 or 10.

    I also believe that a game like this - an excellent one, no doubt, should have a little heftier price that $20 on the low end. Most Wii games are more than that! And this will be better than a Wii game...

    However, the price should be kept fairly low for those of us with budgets.


    I move around a lot and tend to use a lot of computers over time (serially, not at the same time)and definitely prefer multiple re-installs. But... I also agree with Hancock the Superb. I expected to pay somewhere around $40.00 for the game and think that is more than reasonable for what I get out of it. I can't even take my family out to dinner for that much! (Even at McDonald's!)

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    11 years 9 months ago #60 by Davinci

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  • Replied by Davinci on topic Re:DRM
    I understand that this is a sort of down-turned economy and all, but considering that there may not be a out-of-state-tax for most of us, why not just make it an even twenty dollars per install .

    This way if we need another copy, and our money is a bit tight; we could always just buy another copy at a later time.

    Most games come with a price tag of approximately fifty dollars with a limited replay value, but this game has been on most of our computers for several years.

    Also, if someone didn’t know any better, a very low price tag means to stay away from this game!

    Twenty dollars per install is really a bargain, considering that most of us will buy multiple installs, for backing-up, laptop, lan connection, etc….

    davinci

    The only true logic is that, there is no true logic!

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